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Because an economy driven mainly by consumerism is not sustainable in the long run. Such an economy requires unchecked growth and this falls apart once society starts consuming for the sake of consumption.


Why does it require growth, and why does that growth have to be "unchecked", whatever that means. I don't see why one person producing one thing and consuming those produced by others is unworkable....or is that not consumerism?


It's a pretty weak argument when you just pretend not to understand the language. There's no problem with consuming goods. That's necessary, but there are limits to what needs to be consumed. When the economy requires more consumption than is needed for its members to sustain a healthy lifestyle then it needs to be checked or at least not actively pushed further by government policies aimed specifically at increasing unneeded consumption.


"When the economy requires more consumption than is needed for its members to sustain a healthy lifestyle"

I'm not just pretending, I genuinely don't understand what that means. It kind of sounds like you think consumption beyond bare sustenance is bad and needs to be checked somehow? If I'm understanding correctly, then I disagree with you.


The entire global economy since the beginning of time is about consuming.

What makes you think it would fall apart at all?


Exponential growth.

There's a myth out there that we are unconstrained by physical resources. And it has largely been true "since the beginning of time". But that time is quickly coming to an end -- the next big generation shift will be the acceptance of a resource-constrained world imho.

Look at meat consumption. It takes something like 10x as much energy to grow a calorie of meat as it does a calorie of vegetables. If the entire world (or even just the global middle class, if something like that exists) ate as much meat as the developed world, it would be an ecological catastrophe growing all that livestock, disposing of its waste, and fertilizing the grain needed to feed it. And guess what, as the populations of India and China are entering the middle class, they're adopting a taste for meat-heavy diets.

Energy consumption per capita is a pretty good proxy for human development. Whether it's meat or our plastic lawn furniture that we consume from amazon, all of it takes energy to produce. In other words, consumption is another word for energy, and if even a sizable chunk of the world consumed as much as we do in the western world, it would require something like more energy than all proven oil reserves. Clearly that's not going to work.

We can always hope for the deus ex machina ending and say that we'll find salvation in technological progress (whether it's an efficient way to store solar or figuring out fusion or an FTL drive top open up new worlds), but that requires a dangerous amount of hope. It's also the path of inaction -- wait for someone else to deliver salvation.

More realistically, I think consumption is starting to hit physical resource constraints and is inflecting towards the top of the S-curve. The entire global economy since the beginning of time may have been about consuming, but that doesn't mean the party can continue.


There is no limit to consumption or available resources.


There may be no upper bound on the absolute amount of available resources, but there is still a limit on how fast you can expand.

Consider the following maximal example: If all of Earth's resources are exhausted (whatever that means, I don't rely on any exact definition), we need to head outwards into space. Because our expansion is limited by the speed of light, we can at most cover a distance

  r(t) = c * t
and thus a volume of space

  V(t) = (c * t)^3
where t is the time spent travelling through space. The amount of available resources (assuming an even distribution of resources on the scale of the universe) is proportional to V, and thus to t^3.

Cubic growth is much much much much less than exponential growth. In fact, the exponential function can be shown to grow faster than any power function.


Isn't it already happening.

If you put a population of flies in a closed container, even with an unlimited food supply, their population will grow and grow until it hits a peak and collapases. We are smarter than flies but to think we are not also constrained by nature is folly?


No one denies that we are constrained by nature and limited resources. There are two things that preclude your hypothetical "collapse" event from happening.

1. Scientific discovery and innovation. People were all in huge panic in the 17/18/19th century about the ability of our limited amount of land to feed the (exponentially-growing) populace, yet discovery of new methods/technologies increased the hypothetical yield such that the point became moot.

2. We live in a feedback-loop system. In the absence of perverse (and universal) government incentives, society will slow-down as resources become scarce. That is, until point number 1 kicks in again and the cycle starts fresh.


I don't see how you're ignoring all the countries that have had economies collapse. It's not impossible.


We're discussing a very specific type of economic collapse; one due to runaway growth and exhaustion of space/resources. If you have an example of that specific type of 'collapse' happening, I'd be most curious?


No but it does tend to take a fairly dedicated effort to be stupid about your economy.


A closed system can grow as long as consumption becomes more efficient over time.


The only reason the fly colony would collapse is if it ran out of a resource. No point in giving them an unlimited food supply because it's a resource like any other.


Humans are more complex than flies and social atmosphere would need to be healthy relative to dramatic population sizes.

John B. Calhorn's mouse utopia experiments give some indication of complexity in large communities beyond food resources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun#Mouse_experime...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM

  There was no shortage of food or water or nesting 
  material. There were no predators. The only adversity was 
  the limit on space.


  Initially the population grew rapidly, doubling every 55 
  days. The population reached 620 by day 315, after which 
  the population growth dropped markedly. The last 
  surviving birth was on day 600. This period between day 
  315 and day 600 saw a breakdown in social structure and 
  in normal social behavior. Among the aberrations in 
  behavior were the following: expulsion of young before 
  weaning was complete, wounding of young, increase in  
  homosexual behavior, inability of dominant males to 
  maintain the defense of their territory and females, 
  aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant 
  males with increased attacks on each other which were 
  not  defended against.[2] After day 600, the social 
  breakdown continued and the population declined toward 
  extinction. During this period females ceased to 
  reproduce. Their male counterparts withdrew completely, 
  never engaging in courtship or fighting. They ate, drank, 
  slept, and groomed themselves – all solitary pursuits. 
  Sleek, healthy coats and an absence of scars 
  characterized these males. They were dubbed “the 
  beautiful ones.” Breeding never resumed and behavior 
  patterns were permanently changed.


That's exactly the point. Sooner or later, human consumption is going to hit a wall.


Why would that happen? Where is the actual limit to anything?

If we run out of land, we take the sea. If we run out of sea, we take space. And so on.


> If we run out of land, we take the sea. If we run out of sea, we take space. And so on.

This answer precludes the very real possibility that the necessary technology advances to "take the sea" or "go into space" don't come in time to be useful. Any plan that includes "things that haven't been invented yet" isn't a real plan, it's wishful thinking.




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